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Author Topic: I-16 coded "91"  (Read 14122 times)
Badger150
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« on: March 01, 2012, 01:17:53 AM »

Hello

My name is Patrick
I am a French modeller and I build at present an I16.
My work is visible on this site http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=61933

I know Xan who posts on your forum that I have pleasure to read often and where we find a lot of informations there

I am going to represent this coded plane 91 and I have a question on its camouflage; it appears to be 2 colours, certainly green and black

Are you all right with that?

Do you know other pics of this plane?

Thank you in advance for your help
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Pascal
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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2012, 02:41:54 PM »

Hello Badger,

Glad to meet you here! Wink

Pascal
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learstang
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2012, 08:28:12 PM »

Bienvenu, Patrick!  Green and black should be the colours for a two-scheme topsides camouflage I-16 (here obviously overpainted with some temporary white winter camouflage paint).  It's interesting how crudely the bort (tactical number) 91 was painted and that the white paint was thinly and roughly applied to the wing(s).  That will make an interesting paint scheme if you can figure it all out.  Bon chance!

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 12:41:25 PM »

Hi Patrick,
good to see you on this forum!  You culd post some photos of your I-16 build on this forum too...

Photo of "I-16 coded 91" is invariably identified as:
Командир эскадрильи из состава 728-го ИАП И.А.Иваненков (справа) слушает доклад пилота самолета-истребителя И-16 Денисова о выполнении боевого задания. Калининский фронт, январь 1943

I.A. Ivanenkov, commander of one of the squadrons of 728th iap (728th fighter regiment), receives report from I-16 fighter pilot Denisov about accomplished combat task.
Kalinin front, January 1943.

At least, you have the pilot's name, unit, time and where it fought...  Roll Eyes  Unfortunately no photos...   Sad

Some of VVS aces, like Vorozheikin and Ignatiev, flew 728 iap I-16s at the same time (winter 1942-43).  Check thier biographies at
http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/ignatyev.htm
http://airaces.narod.ru/mongol/vorojeyk.htm

Vorozheikin's I-16 Type 17 has markings and fuselage number similar to I-16 coded "91"


From Igniatev's webpage it is clear that 728 iap received overhauled I-16s (probably many times during 1942).  Ignatiev flew to Moscow in April 1942 to exchange his I-16 for overhauled plane.
В апреле 1942 года мы перегнали 2 самолёта И-16 в Москву для ремонта, где мне довелось познакомиться с конструктором Поликарповым. Николай Николаевич интересовался, как воюем на его самолётах И-16. Много было вопросов, и на все вопросы мы давали конкретные ответы. Это был обаятельный, добродушный, культурный человек. В конце беседы он сказал, что скоро войдут в строй более современные самолёты с мощным вооружением, в частности, истребитель И-185. [ Игнатьев участвовал во фронтовых испытаниях этого самолёта, который в серию не пошёл. ] Получив отремонтированные И-16, мы возвратились в свой полк на аэродром Селижарово. Вскоре перелетели под Ржев на полевой аэродром. Ржев в то время был занят немцами.

Conclusion:
your I-16 is one of those overhauled planes (you know that it has early I-16 wing joined with late I-16 fuselage).  In winter 1942-43 it should have been camouflaged in green-black camouflage scheme.  Paints were most likely AMT-4, AMT-6 and AMT-7, not pre-war AII Green and AII Blue.

AMT-4 was matt and slightly more yellow than AII Green
AMT-7 was matt and slightly deeper blue (azur) than AII Blue

I-16 coded "91" may have had large fuselage star, that was repainted to make room for number 91
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 12:47:55 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2012, 12:18:21 AM »

Hi Patrick, hi all,

Quote
I am going to represent this coded plane 91 and I have a question on its camouflage; it appears to be 2 colours, certainly green and black
I've collected some photos of camouflaged I-16s here, including 91.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/I16painting-war.htm
As you can see, the camouflage of many (not all) I-16s can be considered an adaptation of the template of 1941, traced on the longer fuselage of a Yak. This could help to interpretate the photo and make a likely hypothesis on how the black bands were, when not visible on the photo of 91.


Quote
your I-16 is one of those overhauled planes (you know that it has early I-16 wing joined with late I-16 fuselage).

Hi Konstantin, what is suggesting this in the photo?

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2012, 12:51:24 AM »

Quote
your I-16 is one of those overhauled planes (you know that it has early I-16 wing joined with late I-16 fuselage).

... what is suggesting this in the photo?

Long ailerons from Type 5 and engine cowling from Type 10 or later.  Spinner could be from Type 24???
Of course you can't tell from the photo if I-16 was overhauled or not!  If you translate Russian text it will become clear that it was an overhauled plane Cool

KL   
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2012, 05:38:31 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
then there is something strange: usually old style ailerons had the trim tab well separed from the aileron's end, but this one has the trim just on the end as later types.
Regards
Massimo
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marluc
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2012, 06:08:59 AM »

Long ailerons from Type 5...
You,re right,I didnīt noticed it in the picture till now,and aparentelly,the wing ribs reach the wing leading edge as in Type 5.Greetings.

Martin
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xan
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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2012, 07:45:32 AM »

we had this dicution in the post of Badger, but the Badger model was too advanced to make the change...
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=61933&start=200
(use the google tranlator)
Xan
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xan
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 08:21:31 AM »

Hi mister K,
your link shows sa pilawskii profil, he is anywere!!!  Wink
Seriously, you say that the plane was paint in AMT4/6/7
was it the case of all two colored camouflted I-16 ?
Cant' it be in AII green /AII blue, and overpaint with AMT-4 to applied new directives?
I imagine planes with the old camouflage were not all repainted, Am I wrong ?
Xan
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Badger150
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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 08:46:09 AM »

Hello to all

 thank you Konstantin, Massimo and all for these precisions
 concerning the type of wing we had a discussion about it on the forum master194 and the opinions are shared
 the photo does not clearly allow to define the exact type because of the trim at the end of aileron


For the camouflage we can  distinguish the black zones on the fuselage but on the wing for me it’s impossible

Do you think that the wings were also camoufled in green and black ?
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learstang
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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2012, 10:18:49 AM »

Patrick, the black on the wing root appears to continue onto the wing itself.  Although there may have been some examples, I don't know of any aeroplanes that were painted in the black/green camouflage, but with the wings remaining overall green on the top.  This doesn't mean that it didn't happen, just that if it did, it must have been rare indeed.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2012, 10:28:03 AM »

If this was a Yak or LaGG made in 1942 everything would be straightforward:  June 1941 black-green scheme and AMT-4 & AMT-6.

I-16 No 91 is a very different story!!!  Something that is not visible from the staged propaganda photo are the desperate measures Soviet VVS was forced to make in 1941 and 1942:
- many prewar regiments suffered such heavy losses that they were simply disbanded.  New regiments were mobilized from survivors, or from flying schools students with some 20 hours in air.
- VVS had to throw in combat their last reserves:  planes from flying schools, retired old models, repaired wrecks.


728 iap and its I-16 No 91 are representative for these desperate measures:
- regiment was formed in 1942 from Chugaev Flying School instructors (this explaines why it was relatively sucsesful and several pilots became aces)
- Regiment was armed with I-16s of early models from the school or planes that were overhauled in 1942.  728th regiment flew a mix of I-16 types and some composit planes like I-16 No 91.


I-16 No 91 is almost certainly one of the overhauled planes:
- it's a composit - Type 5 wing and Type 10 0r later fuselage, maybe M-62 engine
- it's armed with RS rockets.  This instalation on early types actually started in 1941
- lack of landing gear doors
- oversized red stars


Following are I-16s overhauled at Zavod 51 Moscow in 1942 - one of them could be yours I-16 No 91!!!















I-16 No 91 was overpainted in 1942 for sure!!!  What paints?  my guess AMT... What scheme?  my guess modified June 1941 black-green...  What pattern?  nobody knows...
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 10:32:05 AM by KL » Logged
xan
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2012, 11:04:36 AM »

those pics are wonderfull.
I have a question, are those red stars paint just for the propaganda pic or not?
I tell that because the camouflage paint is not painted, only the red stars...

Konstantin you didn't answer my question; do you believe some planes could have been AIIgreen/AIIblue with an addition of AMT-6 black when new directives appeared ? I understand that AMT6/AMT4/AMT7 was applied in new planes but what about the old one (I thing we allready have this discution, excuse me  Smiley
Xan
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KL
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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2012, 11:44:27 AM »

... are those red stars paint just for the propaganda pic or not?
I tell that because the camouflage paint is not painted, only the red stars...

No, I don't think they had time to change size of stars just for propaganda What for???

... do you believe some planes could have been AIIgreen/AIIblue with an addition of AMT-6 black when new directives appeared ? I understand that AMT6/AMT4/AMT7 was applied in new planes but what about the old one (I thing we allready have this discution, excuse me  Smiley

June 1941 directive was specific:  Planes in operational units that were already green were to be camouflaged with black fields only.  AII Green + Black was possible!!! Undersides were not changed, so  AII Green + Black + AII Gray and AII Green + Black + AII Light Blue were both posible depending when planes were made (before or after May 1940)

But, I-16 No 91 was overhauled (overpainted) a year later in 1942!!!! 728 iap wasn't an operational unit in summer 1941; it didn't exist!!!.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 11:48:09 AM by KL » Logged
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