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Author Topic: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)  (Read 10558 times)
xan
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« on: May 31, 2014, 09:30:38 AM »

Hi I'm looking for more information abou my new project , the Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China.


I have a profil of his plane:



I don't find any pic of this plane... Does anyone have one ?

Xan
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 10:38:45 AM by xan » Logged

KL
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2014, 03:44:50 PM »

Hi Xan,
I couldn't find any photos of that particular Chinese I-16.  Actually, it looks that there are no photos of planes that were flown by the Soviet volunteers in China or photos showing Soviet pilots next to I-16s with Chinese markings...  Probably because it was a secret operation...

All Chinese I-16 photos available on the internet are Chinese, American or Japanese.  Even photos of Chinese I-16s in modern Russian books are poor copies of known photos from western publications.

IMHO, profile of I-16 No 70 is speculative and its association with Kozachenko is dubious.   Embarrassed

following are Chinese AF I-16 photos from San Diego Aviation Museum:
https://flic.kr/p/a5hFQn
https://flic.kr/p/a5hFL8
https://flic.kr/p/a5hFJD
https://flic.kr/p/a5kypd
https://flic.kr/p/a5hFGg
https://flic.kr/p/a5hFDH

this picture from old Chinese book shows colours (air battle on Nov 04, 1939)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 03:58:29 PM by KL » Logged
Troy Smith
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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2014, 04:15:43 PM »

What's type of plane is the spatted monoplane?   

It's not a type I've seen [or noticed] before.   

I had a quick search, found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_engagements_of_the_Second_Sino-Japanese_War

but this is not a type listed.
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KL
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2014, 04:39:25 PM »

Hi Troy,
it's Chinese AF Dewoitine 510



another photo from SDAM with I-16s in background
https://flic.kr/p/a5hES2

Chinese Air Force ace Liu Che-Sun posing in front of his I-16 fighter, circa 1937 to early 1938


Chinese Air Force I-16 aircraft, date unknown


Chinese Air Force I-16 fighter on display at the stadium in Nishinomiya, Japan, late 1930s


Following seems to be a ceremony when I-16 Type 10 arrived in China in 1938




Strange to see black noses on I-16 Type 10 Huh
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xan
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2014, 01:07:18 AM »

                                                                                                                                                  The last two pics are not relly chinese army'I-16 but Sheng Shih-tsai warlord who fought in Xinjiang near kazaktan against muslim separatist


Since 1932 Staline equiped him with a little air force who never get mixed to the chinese army. the symbol of this air force is the star in the fuselage (white , and not red)...                                                                                                

The only Rusian volonters I-16 pics I have is that one:


Konstantin, black nose too...
however, in the chinese I-16 pics, most of them do not have the nose paint in black  
Rusian squadrons had just two numbers paint in the fuselage while chinese had four , the first two number is the chungtuy (squadron) and the last two the plane number.



Xan  

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Troy Smith
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2014, 07:29:24 AM »

Thanks for the aircraft ID Konstantin, itwas late and I wasn't finding answers.

These 30's monoplanes are interesting looking beast.

I had a search, turns out Fonderie Miniatures did a 148th kit, export version in these markinsg as well, and found this build on britmodeller by Xan
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933426-fm-148-dewoitine-d510-gcii8-1938/


I'm guessing this is the same Xan posting here?  Very neat work.
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xan
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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2014, 02:01:53 PM »

It is the same Wink
like you i like very much the 1930 planes...
I have just finish an I-15 you can see in biplane section and I will start two I-16...
Xan
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KL
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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2014, 08:18:33 PM »

Hi Xan,
thanks for the clarification about the Sintszyan and its I-16s.  Do you have a date for those photos?

It is actually strange how many I-16s Type 5 with enclosed cockpit are present on photos.  At that time when first I-16s were delivered to China, in fall 1937 -  Spain was receiving "more modern" I-16s with open cockpit.  In 1938 Spain received only brand new I-16 Type 10, and it looks that the China was still receiving old I-16 Type 5 with black noses.

KL
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xan
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 02:07:24 AM »

Do you have a date for those photos?
No...
In 1938 Spain received only brand new I-16 Type 10, and it looks that the China was still receiving old I-16 Type 5 with black noses.
Perhaps , I think we con see type 10 with black noses too in china

Ifind pics of a type 5 who fall in the japenise hands:







Xan
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KL
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 02:10:58 PM »

Hi Xan,
I think I read somewhere that those I-16s Type 5 were captured by Japanese forces in Nanking.  Interesting that Soviet volunteers started fighting over Nanking in November 1937, and Nanking fell a month later on Dec 13, 1937.

So, those are the very first I-16s delivered to China.  They left Soviet Union in Sept-Oct 1937.

KL
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xan
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2014, 07:43:50 AM »

I'm loocking for pic's of chinese I-16 type 10. it's quite hard...
The only few I fonded don't give much indication.
I'm triying to find a plane with 1938 color, without black nose.
I read that the upper roundels and the stripe diseapear as japanese planes dominated the sky
I haven' t find any pic who prove or improve this ...

this one is not really a chinese army plane but Xinjiang province plane in the West China.

no rouldel no stripes in the tail

we can'tn see anything in that plane:


in this one, it seems that ther is no stripe in the tail...


this is the plane I'm going to do, without pic...


Does anybody know about other Chinese I-16 type 10 pic?

thanks

Xan

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marluc
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2014, 07:25:52 AM »


Does anybody know about other Chinese I-16 type 10 pic?


Xan,while ago I made a research of information regarding the chinese I-16s,and didn´t find a picture of a Type 10 besides the ones you shared with us.

And speaking of chinese I-16s,I noticed that the wing machine guns in the Type 5 had a longer barrel.





In the last picture,the barrel can be seen clearly. Could someone identify the type of machine gun?
Greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2014, 11:51:53 AM »

Hi Martin,
I think that the gun is a PV-1, an air cooled version of the Maxim.

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 10:08:20 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
marluc
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2014, 05:17:45 PM »

Thanks Massimo,it`s very likely they are PV-1s as the barrel of the chinese I-16 is quite similar. Greetings.

Martin
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xan
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2014, 10:38:16 AM »

I finally ended my chinese I616:

In my french forum I  did first a description of the war btween Japan and China, too long for my English level.
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=84688
Anyway I would like to share with tou some informations I could learn doing this project.

My kit is a representation of the Kozachenko's plane, the first Russian ace in China .
I should say it's suppose to be , because the only representation of the plane I founded was this profil :



Staline didn't want too much publicitée about the USSR help to Tchang kay tchek forces...
The only Russians I-16's pic I founded was this one (I-16 type 5)



(I did the code as it appears in the pic.)

The chinese I-16 were painted in USSR acording to the 1938/1940 standart with  AII green
According to those standart downside had to be painted in AII aluminium as I-15 bis or I-153 were, but according to Orlov the 21 factory didn't use aluminuim pigment but a pale blue who quickly turned to neutral grey....

White and blue stripe and upside roundel were present until 1939, where japanese sky domination became absolute.

About the roudel, say that the chanese roudels symbolise a sun and not a star, so Japanese and Chinese had the same symbol in thir plane.

In 1939, political situation changes, with the war in the west and kalkin gol war against the Japan, and Russian troops get out of China, 200 pilots died there...


Well here are the pics :


























« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 10:41:41 AM by xan » Logged

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