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Author Topic: Il-2 model 1943 late  (Read 3355 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2014, 01:18:37 AM »

Hi all,
sorry for my absence from the forum, but I've some health problems now and I'm writing from another computer than my usual one.
The discussion is interesting, I'm happy that something more accurate has emerged, and I'll make some corrections to the drawing and captions when possible.
Misos, you image is a fine work. But now I suspect that the dark grey band on the back of the fuselage should be more likely green as from old Soviet templates, because Z.1, the likely builder of the plane, followed them in a rather accurate way.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2014, 03:58:05 AM »

Hi,
thanks all for comments and correction/suggestions.

KL,
here I made a picture of the ground - changed contrast/brightness etc. to make surface details more evident:

- brown color represents area where grass/mud under the show could be,
- red color marks surface defects on the possible concrete,
Anyhow, it is difficult to say what is covered by snow and what is exposed.

Here is quite evident full snow coverage:


but what about this? Snow cleaned/removed from the concrete surface?


I am not sure about red spinner on the no. "15" and that next one. Board number and "white" outline of the board star is quite dark, significantly darker than tail marking. I do not know whether it is play of the light or they are dirty. And it looks like that only a front part of the spinner is repainted on those planes, similar to this:

The fact is that tail marking is very bright, looks like fresh painting. There could be originally white, now dirty/weathered spinners of "dark" white (i.e. no. "15") and freshly white repainted spinners (new plane and or spinner of originally different color, i.e. plane in the foreground).
Anyhow, red spinners would make color picture visually more attractive, but (front part of) spinners are brighter than red star on the fuselage.

"RS rockets are probably olive green or brown-green." Also at airforce.ru forum they suggest that rather than black they should be in "protective" (Zaschitny) paint color (AII-Z or 4BO or...?)
This is picture from airforce.ru:


Your suggestion for the caption looks good. I will replace it.

...the dark grey band on the back of the fuselage should be more likely green as from old Soviet templates...
Massimo,
should the right side of no."15" be only brown-green?  Huh
Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 05:47:59 AM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2014, 05:07:23 AM »

Hi Misos,
this looks likely (but I haven't my douments here), look at the standard template.
About the colors of tail and fuselage; it is often visibl that white parts of the mid/rear fuselage appear darker than the corresponding colors of the tail and nose, probably because of the exhaust stains. The white parts of the tail (and possibly the red parts of the nose) are free from this.
Stain could be the cause (or perhaps one of the causes) that make the brown band on the rear fuselage much brighter than the blotch on the left side aside of the gunner ; this can give the idea that they are different colors (green and brown) separed by a darker one (grey). This can be true on some planes, particularly those of z 18 that were irregular, but is less likely on one of z 1 as that of the photo.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2014, 11:21:03 AM »

Hi Misos,
read again post No 5 in this thread:  photo of the Il-2 on snow covered airfield is totally unrelated to two photos which were taken in Hungary in Jan-Feb 1945.   Smiley


This Il-2 is an early two-seater with short antenna mast, it is in winter camouflage so it can't be winter 1944/45, its red stars are of the older type (before Sept 1943) without white and red outline - the photo was taken in winter 1942/43.  Zelma was at the Stalingrad front in winter 1942/43, so this photo was most likely taken at the Stalingrad front...





That is exactly where it is concrete and where it is (dry) grass/dirt!  I would change dominant colour of the dirt to darker gray or gray-brown.  Dirt is clearly darker than concrete.
This may help for dirt colour:




Also consider that dirt in Jan-Feb is actually wet, so it is even darker...

Regards,
KL
  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 12:31:47 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2014, 01:17:30 AM »

Hi Misos, read again post No 5 in this thread:  photo of the Il-2 on snow covered airfield is totally unrelated to two photos which were taken in Hungary in Jan-Feb 1945.   Smiley...

Hi KL,
I know, I am fully aware of it. Wink I use it only to show that full snow coverage looks differently from what we can see on probably Budapest airport at this photo:

It is more similar to:

Snow removed/cleaned from concrete runway but kept on the grass.

However, this picture looks like different story (or view):

Concrete runway is clean, see the fissure on the ground.
I originally thought it is something like this - clean runway, snow does not fully cover surrounding grass area:


But the truth is that the area off the concrete is darker than runway, similar to brown paint on the aircraft. Probably something similar to this:

or

or


So here is updated picture:

- RS rockets something between dirty steel and brown-green, with black fin/tail,
- all aircraft have right side only two-color - brown and green, according to the standard scheme.
- runway and surrounding ground is clean, frozen, with only a small remnants of snow.

Regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2014, 12:48:52 PM »

Hi Misos,
colour of dry grass/dirt is OK now.  I agree with you that there were only a few patches of snow; those snow patches are pure white on two original photos.  I think that the two photos were made on same day, probably within minutes.  IMHO, the only difference between them is viewpoint:  photographer was probably kneeling when he took the photo you are  colorizing, he took the other photo photo while standing (so that the perspective was different).

An answer to your AIF question: what colour is "zashchitni tsvet"?
"Zashchitni" is a generic name for a range of colours.  Most of these colours are green (only few exceptions which can be called brown...).  In the catalog below, numbers between 700 and 799 are all reserved for "Zashchitni"



If you colour RS rockets as chip No 736 you are probably closest to the real colour.  Smiley  I disagree with those who say that RS rockets may have been left unpainted, so you may skip unpainted steel.  For those who say that rockets were painted in any colour/paint that was available - colours and paints had purpose and meaning, there were prescribed substitutes etc. So, variations YES, but NOT "any colour" (imagine pink, purple or red rockets...)   Grin  

Couple of things more before you finish this project:

1.  Il-2 No 15 has red spinner.  Darker band is probably created by spinning propeller.  On the other photo red spinner has lighter band - most likely created by the spinning propeller too.
2.  There are some buildings on the horizon, just under No 15.  You should add them, because they disappeared on colorized photo...  Wink

Cheers,
KL    
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 01:13:44 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2014, 10:46:32 PM »

Hi KL,
- all machines except one in the foreground have red spinners,
- building/trees on the horizont just under the no.15 are added:

Regards,
    66misos
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KL
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« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2014, 01:33:33 AM »

Hi Misos,
excellent, almost there!  Three small details:

1.  there is a building in haze under No 15, between the soldier and the plane in background
2.  rockets were olive green (black fins are OK)
3.  wing leading edge between landing gear nacelle and light brown AMT-1 field should be dark gray AMT-12 (check Massimo's drawings)

regards,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2014, 05:07:33 AM »

...almost there!...

Hi KL,
the final touches and
1.  there is a building in haze under No 15, between the soldier and the plane in background,
2.  rockets are olive green with black fins,
3.  wing leading edge between landing gear nacelle and light brown AMT-1 field is dark gray AMT-12.
Hope, I am already there...  Wink

The final picture is posted in the galery at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1891.0
Thanks a lot for your help.
Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 05:10:04 AM by 66misos » Logged

bbrought
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« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2014, 10:10:04 AM »

As I said in the "completed" gallery, great job! Also, thank you KL for all your valuable inputs.
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BA Broughton
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