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Author Topic: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"  (Read 20518 times)
Flavio
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« Reply #105 on: June 22, 2015, 03:25:39 PM »

Thank you Massimo Wink

Flavio
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66misos
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« Reply #106 on: June 23, 2015, 03:43:27 AM »

Hi Flavio,
the photo shows plane 27 still in service, being refuelled (I suppose) of compressed air. The background is different from the exposition in Germany on a sort of pedestal between trees.



So we can't know for sure if the plane was repainted between those shots.
But, for what I see, the division line between the camouflage and the blue lower surface on the rear fuselage sides seems to have exactly the same position of this photo:



this is in favour of the plane still camouflaged.
Unfortunately it doesn't say much if the decorations and the red spinner were already present on the photo of the operative plane in May 1945, after the return of Kozhedub from Moscow. There is still the possibility that the reconstruction of the Russian decals sheet is right, and Kozhedub had a single Guards mark at that time, while it could have had the third HSU starlet at the time of the exposition...



Hi,
compare size of Guard medal and other medals on both "27" on the picture above. Going from one big Guard medal to several smaller medals required at least partial repainting of the engine cowling, both red and grey areas. Question is whether they reapinted only part of the engine cowling, or whole cowling or whole aircraft.
According to the http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/:
" [Following a mission on 11 Feb/45 ] ...Kozedub’s plane was slightly damaged – two hits to the fuselage and one hit to the tail." - e.g. those hits had to be repaired and repainted, e.g. blotches of the different color could be there.

I (e.g. E.P.) have spoken at length to many of the staff of the Monino Museum from this time. There is unanimous agreement that "27" was never retouched nor refinished by the staff after its delivery from the TsDAK...

Photo "1962 in Monino Hall No.1":


Photo of the same place sometime latter:


White 27" appeared in a single-colour AMT-11 upper surface finish. The undersurfaces have the correct appearance on this photo (K-39 film was used here) for AMT-7, and there is every reason to believe that this was in fact the case. The details of the red 'triangle' features and the white trim are identical to the Feb/1945 photograph, and the location and nature of the upper/lower colour demarcation line on the lower cowling is also consistent with this view. As well, the national markings are of the more authentic white-border variety, and are notably not the stereotypical 'Victory' types, while the numerals remain un-trimmed. The spinner, however, is mysteriously painted white. The aircraft now sports the various HSU and 'kill' marking artwork on both the port and starboard sides...
It is most interesting that the aircraft, in its "1955-61" appearance, looks to match the available evidence of its Wartime colouration extremely well. There is simply no evidence on this aircraft that it was ever refinished..."

In standard WWII grey-grey camo, area surrounding red triangle on the engine cowling on the left side should be dark grey AMT-12:


and from the right side there should be visible darker area above and beneath the red triangle:

but nothing like that is visible on the photos from Monino. Huh

To summarize it, I would not be surprised, if the aircraft originally in the standard grey-grey camo and with color blotches after repairs was completely repainted and polished for the Berlin exhibition with the full decoration. I do not understand why victory stars would not have been there.
And with this single grey (AMT-11) painting is could go to TsDAK and from there to Monino.
Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 03:51:09 AM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #107 on: June 23, 2015, 01:06:33 PM »

Hi Misos,
I'm not so sure that the plane depicted in Monino has uniform grey uppersurfaces. I think to see a darker zone under the 27, and another on the wing uppersurface. These zones seem consistent between the photos, although the light seems changed. I agree that I can't see any on the cowling.
I agree also that the deletion of the guards mark would have required some repainting. At this point, the fact that the guards mark was there, and with that size and position, is still to demonstrate.  I don't doubt that someone said to Stankov that the badge was there. But, if there is not a photo, the position, size (and reality) of this mark are still unknown.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 10:24:59 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Flavio
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« Reply #108 on: June 23, 2015, 04:32:41 PM »

Hi all,

I also try to summarize my impression about this  plane.

Let's start with this two photos:




I think they were taken on the same occasion just after the end of the war but before August '45 (Kozhedub has two HSU stars only). According to these photos I note:
1- white tail
2- bordered "27" (blue?)
3- victory stars and HSU stars on fuselage (added post war)
4- two grey tone camouflage.

No information about the nose.

However this photo was taken few time later (Kozhedub still with only two HSU star),



and here is visible the nose with:

5- white spinner
6- red triangles (white bordered)
7- medals (added post war).

In my opinion this is how La-7 "27" appeared soon after the war and apart points 3 and 7, how it was during the last weeks of the war.
I agree with Massimo "...the fact that the guards mark was there, and with that size and position, is still to demonstrate...".

- Referring to the La-7 with red spinner and slight different red triangle (curved) I suspect it was not the same plane.

- Referring to the La-7 in Monino, I remember a '60 photo showing the port side of the plane where was well visible the different position of the fuselage star, the different position of the demarcation line between upper and lower colors, different markings, and above all single tone camouflage.
I believe what is quoted by 66misos ".. 27 was never retouched nor refinished by the staff after its delivery from the TsDAK...".

My impression is that "27" was heavily retouched/repainted before reach TsDAK in the 10 years period after the war, or why not even a different plane?

Flavio

 
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KL
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« Reply #109 on: June 23, 2015, 07:49:16 PM »


Photo "1962 in Monino Hall No.1":


Photo of the same place sometime latter:


White 27" appeared in a single-colour AMT-11 upper surface finish. The undersurfaces have the correct appearance on this photo (K-39 film was used here) for AMT-7, and there is every reason to believe that this was in fact the case. The details of the red 'triangle' features and the white trim are identical to the Feb/1945 photograph, and the location and nature of the upper/lower colour demarcation line on the lower cowling is also consistent with this view. As well, the national markings are of the more authentic white-border variety, and are notably not the stereotypical 'Victory' types, while the numerals remain un-trimmed. The spinner, however, is mysteriously painted white. The aircraft now sports the various HSU and 'kill' marking artwork on both the port and starboard sides...
It is most interesting that the aircraft, in its "1955-61" appearance, looks to match the available evidence of its Wartime colouration extremely well. There is simply no evidence on this aircraft that it was ever refinished..."

First this is TsDAK, not Monino.  Kozhedub's La-7 was transfered to Monino in July 1960, so these photos were taken before 1960...

Second, Kozhedub's La-7 never had red stars with white only border.  What Pilawskii calls "Victory star", a red star with white and red border, was a standard VVS marking since Sept 1943.



I (e.g. E.P.) have spoken at length to many of the staff of the Monino Museum from this time. There is unanimous agreement that "27" was never retouched nor refinished by the staff after its delivery from the TsDAK...

If this comes from Pilawskii it has to be wrong:  Kozhedub's La-7 was repainted for 1967 Aviation Day at Demodedovo airport





video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXBfGgivXhQ
La-7 at 5:28


Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 08:04:50 PM by KL » Logged
steph40
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« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2015, 02:57:19 AM »

Hello all,

I'm very interested by this topic because Kozhedub La-7 is in my future projects. I would like submit to you 2 profiles and I would like your opinion


What is the most probable version for his La-7 in the first 3 or 4 months of 1945 ? With ou without white marking on the fin ? With or without thin red edging on white 27 ?
TIA, regards
Steph
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2015, 08:15:07 AM »

Hi Steph,
my guess is that there should be the white triangle on the tail, a dark blue outine on the number (the only known wreck of La-7 has blue outline), a white outline around the triangle on the nose; the triangle itself should be wider and more straight than these profiles.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2015, 08:38:17 AM »

Hi,

the plane seems to have still unpainted side plates with traces of smoke in the '50s. I think it was not repainted, else the first thing they would have done was to repaint these plates as they did later.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2015, 09:24:17 AM »

Hi,
here are another pictures of Kozhedub's La-7:


This picture is pretty consistent with the picture in the post above - same decoration, metal plate still unpainted, uppersurface seems to be single color (AMT-11)

However, this picture looks like not very successfull repainting:

- overal dark single color uppersurface - dark blue like on the exhibition in 1967?
- changed position of victory stars and 3 HSU medals,
- no board number, no fuselage star (?!)

Regards,
   66misos

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #114 on: June 24, 2015, 11:09:31 AM »

Hi Misos,
thank you for the photos.
I've tried to increase the contrast, and I think to see darker parts consistent with previous photos. In my idea, the plane didn't sufferd consisting repaintings then.
Note that the medals are painted badly aligned: the front one is higher than the others. this suggests that it was painted in a second time after August (its third HSU award, if i remember well), so it's likely that the first two were painted in spring/summer 1945 on both sides, with victory stars and the white spinner.
The successive repainting looks really bad. I think it was green, as postwar planes, also because it was semimatt when compared to the glossy nose.
I doubt that the plane was repainted blue. Perhaps it was dark grey, and the photo was retouched to make it more cool.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #115 on: June 25, 2015, 10:40:39 PM »

Hi Misos and Massimo

there is a short movie with Kozhedub at:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=110&v=PCghncher8g
Can you make a couple of screen captures from 1:42 to 1:50.  The scene shows Kozhedub with a group of Pioneers at TsDiK, probably shortly after the war.

You could also make an image from Demodedovo video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXBfGgivXhQ
at 5:28.  It shows La-7 colours more realistically.

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 11:00:54 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #116 on: June 25, 2015, 11:13:44 PM »

Thank you Konstantin, this is good and confirms the details we see on the museum photos of the '50s. The frunds are better visible.
Unfortunately this is not decisive about the camo.
A photo of the museum plane from the other side would be useful, but perhaps there was not space enough and photographers seem to have neglected this.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #117 on: June 26, 2015, 04:13:16 AM »

Hi,
here is screenshot from the link posted by KL - it nicely shows decoration details:


Here I played a bit with contrast, gamma etc. to enhance suface detials:

Surface under the number 27 looks darker than surrounding area and is exactly where one wold expect AMT-12 blotch of standard NKAP 1943 scheme.
Also a top of engine cowling seems to be darker, but I am not able to say whether it is shadow, or photo defect or AMT-12 blotch.

And here are screenshots from the TV News I found at Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z837Lrkar0 posted on June 7, 2015:

Kozhedub's La-7 again freshly repainted.

Note two-grey camo, what is change from previous single grey version:


Other details:
Propeller spinner is red, while propeller blades again have yellow tips (?),
Decoration is again on the both sides,
Number "27" is outlined by some dark, probably blue color,
White victory stars (not red with white outline) and two HSU stars (middle and right) with leaves really resemble this photo:

Only the third HSU medal is added on the left. Also style of HSU stars is the same.
Seemts it (correctly) does not have red stars on the upper wing.

Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #118 on: June 26, 2015, 01:51:19 PM »

Hi Misos,
excellent summary.
It seems that only one of the starlets of the 1945 version has a shadowing, other stars seem of uniform color.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #119 on: June 26, 2015, 05:52:38 PM »


It seems that only one of the starlets of the 1945 version has a shadowing, other stars seem of uniform color.


I can't see one different starlet?/?  All 62 starlets looks the same...
This may imply that all 62 stars were painted after VE day, when total was definitive.  In that case Kozhedub, like Pokrishkin, didn't have his victory score displayed on his combat planes.

Misos,
Thanks for the image.  Smiley
can you please make another screen capture with Kozhedub and pioneers, it may be posible to see his medals and rank and that will help to date the movie.  Also can you make a screen capture from that Demodedovo movie?

Regards,
KKL
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