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Author Topic: provisional table of colors  (Read 39661 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: November 09, 2009, 04:21:57 AM »

Hi,
I've compiled a provisional table of colors and I've uploaded it here
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html
As you all can see, it is uncomplete: some paints don't have a chip, nor an equivalence, notably the postwar blue-greys as AMT-10, AMT-16 and similar, and dark brown A-8. Besides there are some colors of 1940 that could be identified with those of experimental camouflages that can be seen on
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=668.0
The table and chips are widely based on the works of V/O, of Hornat, of Akanikhin and similar sources.
Any help will be welcome.
Massimo
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 02:19:31 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2009, 02:05:17 PM »

Hi Massimo,

Brown paint for oil system is an interesting one.

Unfortunately, this is the only photo I could find - DB-3 oil tank.  The plane was shut down in December 1939, during the Winter War.  Wreck was recovered in 2006.



from http://dishmodels.ru/gshow.htm?p=2672&lng=E

 
What you see is mostly flesh reflection from the wet surface, some gray mud and brown in the upper portion of the tank.  I would call this colour maroon, but my English is far from perfect.

It is interesting to compare this colour with brown colour used on modern engines:




From:  http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/engines/d-30kp/index.htm  D-30KP Engine displayed at the Museum of Aero-engine Production at Gatchina

Cheers,
Konstantin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2009, 07:22:04 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for this image. It gives the idea of a very dark brown.
Some brown details are well visible in the engine of the rebult MiG-3, but the color could be not a good replica of the original one.
However now I have an idea for a provisional chip.
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2009, 01:38:59 AM »

Hi Massimo,

I would suggest to group paints by their type: Oil paints in one group, Nitro paints in another etc.  Within the group you may sort them by name and year of introduction: AII paints followed by AMT etc...  Basically, the same as the paints are organized in "Albom Nakrasok".

When you group paints this way, it is going to be easier to see that some paints were used for metal only, other for fabric/wood etc.  

Claim that any paint could be used on any surface or over any other paint (nitro AII paints on metal, oil paints over nitro paints etc) is one of the major E. Pilawskii's mistakes.  Every handyman knows that paints for wood are different than paints for metal and that they are not interchangeable.

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 04:37:38 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2009, 02:18:18 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
I agree that the page needs of some more order; I was thinking to group paints (inside the existing tables) for color, that is green with other greens etc. Then add notes on the chemical properties. So a modeler that needs to know how to paint a model that is, for example, black and green can choose easily between greens suitable for that plane. Taking in account that many shades are very similar despite their different medium, or that some types were suitable both on metal and wood, this simplify life to modelers interested only in shade.
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2009, 04:34:40 PM »

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

Compiling all colors in one specter (from yellows to different greens and all way to purple) would be an interesting exercise.  It could be useful for modelers.

But… More important task is to educate both modelers and all the others.  It is important to stress what was the original use of each paint (or if that use changed over time), when the paint was introduced and when its use was discontinued.
If this information is presented logically people will understand it and accept it.

Eventually, people will be able to realize why AE-9 on Art Deco I-16s doesn’t make sense (because, before GPW, AE-9 was used as an exterior metal paint only).

Cheers,  Cool
KL 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2009, 02:45:44 PM »

Hi,
I've updated the color table, that now is linked by the main page of VVS research.
Anyone willing to have a look to it, and give suggestions on how to improve or correct it, is welcome.

Quote
But… More important task is to educate both modelers and all the others.  It is important to stress what was the original use of each paint (or if that use changed over time), when the paint was introduced and when its use was discontinued.
If this information is presented logically people will understand it and accept it.

Eventually, people will be able to realize why AE-9 on Art Deco I-16s doesn’t make sense (because, before GPW, AE-9 was used as an exterior metal paint only).

Aside the codified use of colors, it would be interesting to know what happens if paints of some type are overposed to another type of layer.  Sometimes photos show non-standard camouflages, and it's important to know what can happen overposing casually two types of paint to suggest or to exclude some combinations.

Massimo


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KL
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2009, 01:23:37 AM »

Hi Massimo,

Some comments on your new table:

1.  I guess this is the table for modellers - all greens grouped together, all grays grouped together, etc.  Why did you devide them in 3 groups: before 1941, 1941-1945 and after 1945?  Some paints appear in two groups.  Acording to "Albom" AE-8 should appear in all 3 groups.

I would again sugest creating one table more (technical and historical) with paints grouped by type and sorted chronologicaly by time of introduction.  In this table you must have separate coloumns for time of introduction and for paint type (same as table in Aviakolektsiya).  In this table you will not need FS eqivalents!

2.  It is not clear if pre-war A2nd coat nitro paints were used on metal surfaces even with zinc-chromate primers.  AMT nitro paints were, but that was later during the war.

3.  Title "Camouflage and livery paints for Soviet aircraft 1937-June 1941" is not apropriate - some paints predate 1937.

4.  For A-19f and A-18f alkyd seems to better describe chemistry of these paints

5.  All A2nd coat nitro varnishes were glossy

6.  4BO was a colour not a paint!  4BO paints used on tanks were probably (chemically) different then 4BO paints used on airplanes

7.  ALG-5 was formulated as 50% ALG-1 + 50% A-14.  Its color was gray-green or dark gray, not blue.

Thats it for now.

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 02:32:16 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2009, 03:11:10 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for your suggestions. Let's see...

About the suddivision of colors by period, I think that it makes the table more readable for modelers. One starts already having an idea if the plane that he needs to paint is of before, during or after the war. Duplication of some paints is not a problem.
Fs matches are useful, in my view; if I can, I will look for Humbrol, gunze and other matches. I appreciate the work of AKAN, but I don't want to make all people dependant on their paints only.
For paging reasons, I can't make a column for year only and one for chemical only (that are written in other cells), else the table becomes so wide that it becomes impossible to be visualized on many monitors.
About A 2nd (people is used to call them AII now), we could ask Orlov if they were utilized on metals too, but it looks likely: according to my observations, only MiG-3 Yak 2/4 and some I-16s show the strong difference in shade between greens on metal and wooden part on aged planes, so there has to be some type of paint utilized both on metal and wooden/fabric sufaces.
About the title: I would like to extend the table to the '30s, but at present time I have not informations enough.
However, it's likely that planes painted before 1937 were unchanged in 1937.
Alkyd... ok
4B0 a color, not a paint... this sounds strange. All greens developed after 4B0 were inspired to this; the likely reason was that it was the same paint utilized for tanks, and was in some way unsatisfactory for its chemistry.
About ALG-5: Jiri Hornat describes the use, after July 1941, of a paint 50% ALG-1, 50% A-14 and some aliminium powder; this should appear as grey-green or olive green (we could check mixing two similar paints); this use was deluding because the surfaces needed to be chemically treated first; so they reverted to ALG-1 plus a layer of ALG-5 greyish green, then a hand of light grey oil enamel A-9.
So, ALG-5 was different than a mix of ALG-1 and grey A-14.  Have you better informations on this?
About the shade, it is likely that it was greener and darker than my chip, this is a thing to check; however, for what I understand, it is unlikely that this color appears visible on planes.

Thank you again
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2009, 03:13:17 PM »

Hi Massimo,

few comments more:

8.  AE-9 Ligth Gray oil enamel was also glossy when new.  Acording to V&O it weathered quickly into matt surface (compared with chalk)

9.  For 3B paint you have time-frame 1933-37 and for Typical Use DB-3 and I-15bis.  It should be TB-3 and I-15.  I-15bis was mass produced in 1938-1939.

10.  1940 for 4BO sounds quite late.  This should be double checked.

11.  First red colour in "Markings colors" is AII Kr.  Like other AII nitro paints it was glossy.  This is clearly visible on LaGG-3 fragment from Finland: camouflage paints are matt AMT and red star is glossy AII Kr.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
KL

 
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KL
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2009, 04:47:10 PM »

From scalemodels.ru at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=954&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=80  post by Dubbler:


Справочник по авиационным материалам.
Выпуск 1.Самолетные материалы.
М.1942.Гос. издательство оборонной промышленности.


Aviation Materials Directory
1st edition. aeroplane Materials
1942, published state publisher of Defence Industry



Paint No4 is ALG-5:

“Name and colour =  Primer varnish dark-gray ALG-5”

“Standard No = VTU=Temporary technical standard”

“Use = As an independent anticorrosive layer for metals.  Represents ready to use mix composed of ALG-1 primer and A14 enamel taken in equal parts.”

“Possible replacement =  mix composed of ALG-1 primer and A14 enamel taken in equal parts.”



Руководство по войсковому ремонту лакокрасочных покрытий самолетов.
М.1947.Оборонгиз


Manual for military overhaul of aeroplane paints
1947



Describes colour as Gray-green



Справочник основных характеристик лакокрасочных материалов
по действующим в авиапромышленности стандартам.
М.Оборонгиз.1951

Another manual from 1951




ALG-1 is used as a primer for Aluminum and magnesium alloys
ALG-5 is used as a primer for aluminum and steel parts

It is important to note word steel – ALG-5 was used as a primer for Shturmoviks!  ALG-1 was used as a primer for duraluminum airplanes – Pe-2s!  



Hope this explains

Cheers,
KL

« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 08:56:20 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2009, 11:28:42 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
Thank you for your suggestions.

Quote
9.  For 3B paint you have time-frame 1933-37 and for Typical Use DB-3 and I-15bis.  It should be TB-3 and I-15.  I-15bis was mass produced in 1938-1939.

Hmm... DB-3 is my mistake.
I 15 bis, on photos, appear to be painted with a very dark green, aside some I-16s. If not 3B, what else could it be? EP citated an AE-15 and a factory green, possibly the same pain, and Hornat . Is there any conformation on newer and well documented sources?

Quote
Paint No4 is ALG-5:

“Name and colour =  Primer varnish dark-gray ALG-5”

“Standard No = VTU=Temporary technical standard”

“Use = As an independent anticorrosive layer for metals.  Represents ready to use mix composed of ALG-1 primer and A14 enamel taken in equal parts.”

“Possible replacement =  mix composed of ALG-1 primer and A14 enamel taken in equal parts.”


OK, you've convinced me.


Quote
ALG-1 is used as a primer for Aluminum and magnesium alloys
ALG-5 is used as a primer for aluminum and steel parts

It is important to note word steel – ALG-5 was used as a primer for Shturmoviks!  ALG-1 was used as a primer for duraluminum airplanes – Pe-2s! 


If I don't mistake, green paint was found inside Pe-2s too.

So, who knows what was the color of the landing gear of Lavockins? By sure darker than the light blue.
EP suggested green, I'm more oriented to A-14.

Massimo


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KL
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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2009, 01:10:47 AM »


Quote
ALG-1 is used as a primer for Aluminum and magnesium alloys
ALG-5 is used as a primer for aluminum and steel parts

It is important to note word steel – ALG-5 was used as a primer for Shturmoviks!  ALG-1 was used as a primer for duraluminum airplanes – Pe-2s! 


If I don't mistake, green paint was found inside Pe-2s too.



The green paint is ALG-1

Although you probably know this, more about ALG-1 and ALG-5 primers:

ALG-1 is soviet zinc-chromate.  It's an anti-corrosive coating, not a paint.  In technical documentation, usually, treated as a primer.

ALG-1 color wasn't standardized - from wrecks it color could be anything between:



bright yellow
green-yellow
brown-yellow



ALG-1 was introduced in Soviet aviation industry, most likely, in 1937.  This is confirmed from Spanish SB wrecks.
 
All SB bombers made after 1937 were painted/protected with ALG-1.  Following are examples for different ALG-1 shades:


 

 

 
 
More about zinc-chromate history at:  http://www.colorserver.net/history/history-zinc-chromate.htm
Zinc-chromate has been adopted as standard primer in American aviation industry in 1936.  ALG-1 was the latest American technology when adopted by Soviets.


 
ALG-5 was an early war improvisation.  1942 manuel has "Temporary Technical instruction" for its standard.  My guess is that beginning of its application wasn't earlier than 1941.
 
Again, ALG-5 colour is described as dark gray or gray-green.  ALG-5 colour also varied since the colour of one component (ALG-1) varied.
 
Cheers,
KL

P.S.  Tomorow more about I-15bis and 4BO
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marluc
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« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2009, 06:07:53 AM »

ALG-1 is soviet zinc-chromate.  It's an anti-corrosive coating, not a paint.  In technical documentation, usually, treated as a primer.

ALG-1 color wasn't standardized - from wrecks it color could be anything between:



bright yellow
green-yellow
brown-yellow



ALG-1 was introduced in Soviet aviation industry, most likely, in 1937.  This is confirmed from Spanish SB wrecks.

What a revelation Konstantin!!! This is new to me.Once again,thanks for sharing your research.Greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2009, 02:05:03 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Your informations on ALG-1 are interesting. Thank you very much.
I am wondering if this paint was really greenish, or has become greenish after having painted on with green paint that has in some way polluted it.
Or, just to say: if they added a bit of grey or black to ALG-1 to turn it into a greenish shade, did the name of the paint remain unchanged?
About the green shade of ALG-1, did you find documents saying that this coat could assume this shade, or it is your idea on the base of the page on zinc chromate? A maintenance manual of some Pe-2 could help to see the name of the green coating.

Another thing: I see that there is some AE-15 on the image of the wreck of SB. I am highly interested in this paint, both for chip and for field of application, because I am looking for a prewar dark green.
Do you know anything on AE-15?

Massimo



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