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Author Topic: Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours  (Read 12604 times)
marluc
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« on: May 22, 2010, 09:31:24 AM »

Hello:

Iīve found these photos of Hurricane "white 42" Z2585 on scalemodels.ru and I would like to know your point of view regarding its paint scheme.





This is a profile Iīve found in the same post:


I agree that itīs a Hurricane MkIIa with Dark Green/Dark Earth/Sky,but the light coloured patches on both sides of the fuselage donīt look like grey or dirty white,at least to me.And what looks like snow over the nose,could it be extended paint chipping?
Please,let me know what you think,your help is very appreciated.Thanks in advance,greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2010, 12:58:47 PM »

Hi Martin,
it's strange... the white dots on the nose and wingroots are chipping, by sure... besides there is a small light trace close to the red star on the photo of the fuselage on a truck, but not really a white outline.
I suspect that the plane had been white for some reason.
Couldn't it have been a Sea Hurricane? Some were painted white by the Royal Navy, I think.
If so, the painting could be Russian green with sky undersurfaces.
The bands on the sides... some light grey?  Note that there is a second band under the horizontal tail surface on the left side.
Besides I see some discontinuity in color under the mast on the left side of the fuselage.
I don't see strong evidence of disruptive camo, at least not with the outlines shown on the profiles.
Maybe the specular scheme is a bit more possible... with Russian green rear fuselage.
Beside I see a rectangle, possibly red, on the guns holes.
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marluc
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2010, 04:18:37 PM »

Thanks Massimo for sharing your point of view.

Quote
Couldn't it have been a Sea Hurricane? Some were painted white by the Royal Navy, I think.
I donīt think so.Iīm no expert but,as far as I know,the white RN Sea Hurricanes belonged to the Pacific fleet,during the final years of the war.So itīs almost imposible that one of this sea birds reached the Soviet Union.

Quote
..the painting could be Russian green with sky undersurfaces.
Taking a good look at the photos,a RAF camouflage pattern is undistinguishable;now I agree with you that it was repainted in russian green,but,why the rear fuselage Sky band and the yellow wing leading edge bands were not overpainted? The red rectangle over the gun ports is also present.

Quote
Note that there is a second band under the horizontal tail surface on the left side.
I think itīs light reflection on the flat surface under the horizontal surface.The bands on the side must be light grey,thereīs no other option.

Quote
Besides I see some discontinuity in color under the mast on the left side of the fuselage
I see it too,another shade of green perhaps?

Itīs hard to make a good interpretation of this Hurricane.Thanks again Massimo for your help,greetings.

Martin

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2010, 11:45:15 PM »

Hi Martin,
I've built a Sea Hurricane of a unit escorting convoys to Murmansk, if I remember well, from the Revell kit, and it was painted white.
Perhaps there is some vague shadow of camo on the nose...
I suppose that this was a Sea Hurricane painted white, repainted brown and green by English before delivery. The camouflage was specular to that shown on the profiles. Then the Russians had to repaint something on the sides, perhaps because the plane changed its unit, and had to repaint the sides of rear fuselage with green. To restore the previous camouflage, Russians utilized their closest equivalent to Dark Earth, that was AMT-1, neatly lighter than the British color.
So, the painting scheme of the decals sheet could be utilized as likely, with the modifications due to match this idea .
Massimo
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2010, 02:46:49 AM »

Z2585 was a Hurricane Mk.IIA, built by Hawkers before April 1941 and serving with 56 and 316 Squadrons before being sent to Russia on 11 December 1941.

The white Sea Hurricanes were much later, 1944 from memory, and Mk.IIc with codes in the NFxxx sequence.  Plus the Sky band on the rear fuselage rules out such a scheme.  To me this aircraft displays the low contrast of the Temperate Land Scheme (Dark Green and Dark Earth) with patches of two different Soviet paints - a dark shade over the finflash and star, covering any earlier markings, and a lighter patch behind the number.  I agree the second patch is too dark for white or any underside colour,

I don't see signs of a total overpaint in white, and the wear around the wingroot is fairly representative, although perhaps displaying heavier use than the rest of the airframe.  Some of the smaller white patches do not appear where heavy wear would occur - for example the outer wings and top of the cowling.  I suspect these are snow, which has not been completely cleared away after the crash, and there may be some residual snow exaggerating the wear on the wingroot.

So with minor qualifications over the colour of the local overpaints and a bit of wear, the original artwork looks very convincing.

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marluc
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2010, 06:36:07 AM »

Massimo and Graham,thanks for your help.

Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
To restore the previous camouflage, Russians utilized their closest equivalent to Dark Earth, that was AMT-1, neatly lighter than the British color.
Do you mean that the light patches on both sides are AMT-1? Itīs a logical option as itīs lighter than green and darker than white.

Z2585 was a Hurricane Mk.IIA, built by Hawkers before April 1941 and serving with 56 and 316 Squadrons before being sent to Russia on 11 December 1941.
Thanks for this good information Graham,now Iīm sure this is a Hurricane Mk.IIa.

Quote from: Graham Boak
To me this aircraft displays the low contrast of the Temperate Land Scheme (Dark Green and Dark Earth)
So this is why the demarcation lines between colours is hard to be seen.I think that the snowy enviroment helps to this effect also.

Quote from: Graham Boak
I suspect these are snow, which has not been completely cleared away after the crash
Yes,I agree,but now I think thereīs also thin layers of ice over the cowling that looks like extended paint wear.Please,take a look at this image,Iīve marked them with red arrows.



I can see that both of you arrived to the same conclusion,that the profile can be used as reference but with the modifications you mentioned.And with plain red stars,as the white bordered are totally incorrect.
Thanks again for your help,greetings.

Martin
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marluc
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 09:05:10 AM »

Hello:

Iīve been "playing" with the decalīs profiles and changed many things,using as a reference the replies by Massimo and Graham,the photos of "white 42" and the table of colours.


The light coloured patch is AMT-1 and it donīt reach the wing root.


Here Iīve changed not only the colour of the light patch but its shape too.In both cases,Iīve erasd the white borders from the red stars.
So this is my present interpretation of Hurricane “white 42”,any comment will be welcomed.Greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2010, 09:29:35 AM »

Hi Martin,
in my idea, for the few shadows that I can see on the photo, you have to mirror the camouflage too.
Probably, when you do this, the AMT-1 bands could align with the dark earth ones.
The red rectangle on the gun holes is missing too.
Massimo
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marluc
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2010, 11:17:03 AM »

...,in my idea, for the few shadows that I can see on the photo, you have to mirror the camouflage too.
Probably, when you do this, the AMT-1 bands could align with the dark earth ones.
I think that,if do this,the AMT-1 patches would be of different shape as the ones in the photos.Or Iīm misunderstanding your idea,perhaps.

The red rectangle on the gun holes is missing too.
You mean from the profile,isnīt it? Iīll I add them later.
Greetings

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2010, 01:20:45 PM »

Hi Martin,
for what I know, British fighters could have two variations of the same camo scheme to avoid an excessive uniformity that could reveal the plane to observers: the variations were specular each other. That is, on some planes the left side of the fuselage was painted as the right side of other planes. This looks the case comparing the photos and the profile.
Massimo
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 02:17:03 PM »

The profile shows the A pattern, which was applied to the first aircraft of a batch.  The B pattern was the mirror image, and applied to the second aircraft, the two patterns then alternating.   However this had fallen out of use by the time of the Mk.II, with the A pattern becoming the standard for the Hurricane.

Distinguishing the pattern is difficult on these photographs, but if I had to choose I'd say it looks like the A pattern to me.
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marluc
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Posts: 419



« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2010, 06:14:24 PM »

Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
...for what I know, British fighters could have two variations of the same camo scheme ... the variations were specular each other
Now I know what you mean Massimo,but as Graham said (thanks for the complete information),Iīve seen the B pattern applied only on Mk.Iīs.

Quote from: Massimo Tessitori
Besides I see some discontinuity in color under the mast on the left side of the fuselage.
This is from your first post of this thread, Massimo.The discontinuity can also be seen in the photo of fuselage on the truck,behind one of the wood bars.A decoloration of the original colour perhaps?
Gentlemen,thanks for your help,greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2010, 11:40:23 AM »

Hi, Martin and Graham,

Quote
The profile shows the A pattern, which was applied to the first aircraft of a batch.  The B pattern was the mirror image, and applied to the second aircraft, the two patterns then alternating.   However this had fallen out of use by the time of the Mk.II, with the A pattern becoming the standard for the Hurricane.

Distinguishing the pattern is difficult on these photographs, but if I had to choose I'd say it looks like the A pattern to me.

I'm not so sure. look at this image. If the plane was painted with the scheme B, the light patches of supposed AMT-1 correspond exactly to dark earth bands. It's hard to believe that it's a coincidence.
Massimo

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marluc
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Posts: 419



« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2010, 05:12:27 PM »

Very convincing Massimo,this inverted pattern camo became a second option for "white 42".

Another photo:


Thereīs no difference between both Dark Green and Dark Earth,it looks like the tail is of a solid colour and thereīs some kind of overpainting behind the tail wheel (red arrow).What do you think?
Greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2010, 11:19:25 PM »

Hi Martin,
yes, it looks dark. Couldn't it be some dirt due to the tail wheel? Or they've repainted this part with AMT-1?
I think to see a discontinuity in color under the sencond strut of the rudder. I wonder if t's due to reflection, or what else.
Massimo
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