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Author Topic: Hurricane IIa Z2899,searching for info  (Read 8018 times)
marluc
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« on: July 02, 2010, 04:37:51 PM »

Hello everybody:

Iīm looking for information regarding this black Hurricane Z2899:



I would like to know if this is a picture of the aircraft:



Does anybody know something about the previous service of Z2899?
Thanks in advance for your help,greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2010, 10:48:25 PM »

Hi Martin.
Geust, in his Red Stars n.4, writes that this is the first Hurricane handed over to the URSS.
It was accepted by Col. K.A.Gruzdev already on 22 september 1941 for evaluation at NII VVS.
The second picture is of the same plane, it shows the same repaintings of it on another image.
If the plane was black, the repaintings could have been black (AMT-6) and be visible only because they reflected in different way.

To tell the truth, I am not fully convinced that the plane was overall black. I see some shades that are fully compatible with the A scheme, dark green, dark brown, with black undersurfaces and prop only.

Massimo
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 11:03:36 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
marluc
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2010, 06:25:47 AM »

Hi Massimo:

Thanks for the information,Red Stars 4 is about Lend-Lease planes? Is there another photo of this Hurricane?
Being a clear picture,it looks like that,at least to me,this Hurricane is painted in one solid dark colour.But Iīm wondering about the light spots on the side and under the nose,close to the spinner,paint chipping showing the metal surface? ,or the previous camuflage colour perhaps?
Your help is very appreciated,greetings.

Martin
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2010, 08:02:24 AM »

Hi Massimo:

Thanks for the information,Red Stars 4 is about Lend-Lease planes? Is there another photo of this Hurricane?
Being a clear picture,it looks like that,at least to me,this Hurricane is painted in one solid dark colour.But Iīm wondering about the light spots on the side and under the nose,close to the spinner,paint chipping showing the metal surface? ,or the previous camuflage colour perhaps?
Your help is very appreciated,greetings.

Martin
Hi Martin

Red Stars 4 is just about Lend Lease, 220 pages A4, with 500 photos.   It's out of print, but i got one last year from the printers, for 24 euro [new price was 48 euro!!]  and post, as it has some (very minor) scuffs on the cover. Worth asking about.
Highly recommended, hours of information.  I have spotted the odd little error in captions, (eg page 126, the B-25 listed as being the same plane, "white 17"  are not even the same subtype, top is a J and next is a D!) and while the colour profiles are very good, not all the profiles photos are in the book, which in the case of a P-47 in what looks like AMT 11 and 12 is rather frustrating.

Anyway, here's the pictures mentioned by Massimo.



Scan is not that great, was in a rush, and blurred it a little to reduce the effect of the printing screen.
I am only now comparing it to the pic you posted, looks to be the same plane, note the paint chips on the starboard side.
The profile shows the exhaust shields, but not the photo.
I did wonder about the tropical filter, but it fitted.   My guess is this, this is a plane from the middle east, used for night defence (there is a pic of black painted Hurricanes, i think in Cyprus, maybe Egypt,  in a book, which I will  scan and post when I can )

It would be a lot easier to supply from the Middle East, and a night defence plane might well have been easier to free up.   
(while the RAF hoarded Spitfire squadrons in the UK to be wasted in pointless fighter sweeps over France in 1941 while not sending them where they could made a difference, eg, Malta, the middle east and far east!)
The serial number would allow you to trace the airframe history more.

Anyway....the initial RAF night paint was  RDM2A, a very matt sooty black.  The very matt nature of it look a lot like the pics above, as i said sooty  (it also weathered badly, and being rough, cause drag.  The RAf then switched to smooth night, though test later showed the most effective black was high gloss, as it refracted the light from a searchlight away, while even the smooth showed up as grey in the the beam)
This was also used until 1942 IRRC, you see it on Defiants and Beaufighters for example.

IIRC correctly AMT6 was slightly glossy, and the AII K red is as well,  and if this was applied over the existing RAF roundels, which this could account for the "lighter" finish.  Makes more sense than using green paint.   Finally, note the light, it's been raining, and the sun is from high angle, and the wing paint is showing the sheen of both the black and red, while RDM2 is dead flat. 

As i said earlier, RDM2A was noted for for weathering badly, and if this is a used plane from the middle east it could look quite worn.

The serial is probably dull red..... and, well, this should help


look forward to your thoughts on this
T





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marluc
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Posts: 419



« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2010, 12:05:56 PM »

Hello Troy:

Thanks a lot for the scan of Z2899,Iīve been looking for so long for at least one complete picture of this bird.I want to thank you also for the review of Red Stars 4 and all the good information and research youīre sharing,itīs very appreciated.

The profile shows the exhaust shields, but not the photo.
This is why I donīt trust profiles.
Z2899 is a MkIIa,isnīt it? The "external" MGs canīt be seen in the picture.

My guess is this, this is a plane from the middle east, used for night defence...
Good guess,the pictures I know of UK based black Hurricanes donīt have the tropical filter.  

IIRC correctly AMT6 was slightly glossy, and the AII K red is as well,  and if this was applied over the existing RAF roundels, which this could account for the "lighter" finish.  Makes more sense than using green paint.   Finally, note the light, it's been raining, and the sun is from high angle, and the wing paint is showing the sheen of both the black and red, while RDM2 is dead flat.
Youīre right,it makes more sense than using the AMT 4,but,I think that "new" and gloosy AMT-6 should look darker than the worn RDM2A black paint of the Hurricane.Anyway,as both paints were available at that time,both remain as good options for covering RAF roundels.
Greetings.

Martin  
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 12:07:33 PM by marluc » Logged
Troy Smith
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Posts: 349


« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2010, 02:32:36 PM »


Hi Martin

Hello Troy:

Thanks a lot for the scan of Z2899,Iīve been looking for so long for at least one complete picture of this bird.I want to thank you also for the review of Red Stars 4 and all the good information and research youīre sharing,itīs very appreciated.

my pleasure.  I don't know anyone personally who would be interested in this!

The profile shows the exhaust shields, but not the photo.
"This is why I donīt trust profiles.
Z2899 is a MkIIa,isnīt it? The "external" MGs canīt be seen in the picture."

well, profiles can be useful, as printing can degrade an image, but I like to see the photo(s) as well.
I think it's a IIA, but a serial check would confirm.  But it certainly an early mkII, as it has the non flared exhaust pipes and the straight tailwheel.


My guess is this, this is a plane from the middle east, used for night defence...
Good guess,the pictures I know of UK based black Hurricanes donīt have the tropical filter.  

Again, need to check against serial.   

IIRC correctly AMT6 was slightly glossy, and the AII K red is as well,  and if this was applied over the existing RAF roundels, which this could account for the "lighter" finish.  Makes more sense than using green paint.   Finally, note the light, it's been raining, and the sun is from high angle, and the wing paint is showing the sheen of both the black and red, while RDM2 is dead flat.
Youīre right,it makes more sense than using the AMT 4,but,I think that "new" and glossy AMT-6 should look darker than the worn RDM2A black paint of the Hurricane.Anyway,as both paints were available at that time,both remain as good options for covering RAF roundels.

More what i meant is that a really matt finish grey compared to a shiny black under certain light conditions, could appear darker, because the matt finish will absorb light, the shiny finish will reflect light, especially under certain light conditions, not how different the upperwing markings appear compared to the fuselage and tail.  Also note how the fabric covered aileron looks darker than the wing, this having a matter finish than the metal parts.  This effect can be seen by comparing Hurricane cowlings with the fabric areas.
This is pretty obvious up close to the real thing, even a warbird, like this, in gloss black.
 Closest I have ever been to one. (i got to climb up and look in the cockpit too, but they wouldn't let me get in, i did ask!)
 


Bright sunlight, note how the apparent colour of the gloss black in sunlight, and the contrast between metal and fabric. Quite a low sun angle. 

now look at this again thinking about the light.



finally underwing appears a uniform colour, but then the plane was unlikely to have had underwing roundels anyway.

Hope of interest.
T




 

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marluc
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Posts: 419



« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2010, 03:13:38 PM »

Hello Troy:

Nice to "meet" you.

Also note how the fabric covered aileron looks darker than the wing, this having a matter finish than the metal parts.  This effect can be seen by comparing Hurricane cowlings with the fabric areas.
I didnīt noticed it before,now I see that thereīs light reflection over the wing but not on the aileron. 

...finally underwing appears a uniform colour, but then the plane was unlikely to have had underwing roundels anyway.
Hurricane night fighters had no underwing RAF roundels?

Thanks for the interisting information,greetings.

Martin
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2010, 05:53:32 AM »

Some points to discuss.

I don't think that matt black looks darker than gloss black - I'd have said the contrary, except of course for glare. 

Special Night was replaced by the prewar Night.  It has been suggested that late-war bombers wore a Smooth Night, but this would be a different paint.

If that is the first (or at least an early) Hurricane delivered to the Soviet Union, then it will have preceded the introduction of the Southern supply route.  I don't know of any Hurricanes delivered by this route, but that doesn't rule it out.  If it really was the first, then its delivery route will have been documented.  Somewhere.

The existence of the tropical filter does not necessarily point to a North African origin.

The underwing roundels were for the use of the Royal Observer Corps to identify RAF aircraft whilst noting the movement of all.  Remember that radar did not extend inland in those days.  There would be no value in carrying underwing roundels at night, and they are not seen on night bombers, either.

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2010, 01:49:29 PM »

Hi Martin Troy and Graham,
I suspect that this Hurricane was not all black, but camouflaged. There are vague light and dark parts that have a nearly perfect correspondance to a standard scheme.




Massimo
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marluc
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Posts: 419



« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2010, 03:51:59 PM »

Hi Massimo:

I suspect that this Hurricane was not all black, but camouflaged. There are vague light and dark parts that have a nearly perfect correspondance to a standard scheme.
The picture Iīve posted in message #1 of this thread is undoubtely of the same aircraft as the ones posted by Troy,itīs of a good quality and,at least to me,the Hurricane looks painted in one solid dark colour.Do you mean itīs camouflaged with the underside painted in black?
Greetings.

Martin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2010, 11:00:19 PM »

Quote
The picture Iīve posted in message #1 of this thread is undoubtely of the same aircraft as the ones posted by Troy,itīs of a good quality and,at least to me,the Hurricane looks painted in one solid dark colour.Do you mean itīs camouflaged with the underside painted in black?
Hi Martin, hi all,
yes, my idea is that it was camouflaged with black undersurface. Apart for the surprising correspondance of slight irregularities of color, the absence of plates hidding the exhausts would be surprising for a night fighter.
Regards
Massimo
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