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Author Topic: Hawker Hurricane in VVS  (Read 15988 times)
marluc
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« on: October 01, 2010, 11:30:25 PM »

Hello:

I think this could be a thread with all the information we can find regarding the colours of the Hawker Hurricane in soviet service.
It started here: http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=23.15 Reply #28.

from "hurricane in Foreign service"
Note pic #109 of bort 14, note recovered front of fin.




It looks like the stabilators had the same colour shade as the vertical fin,so both surfaces were extensively repaired and recovered with new fabric;or they were overpainted in a light colour.

pic #101 note mismatched gun panels, and looks like it could be from same sequence as bort 14 in #109, note dusty background, and think like a photographer, getting a squadron setting out.



Although Iīve seen this pic many times before,I didnīt noticed the mismatched gun covers.And yes,they could be from the same sequence as #109,as the shape,size and font of the number 19 looks very similar to the number 14 of the previous Hurricane.


Possibly pic #91, note unusual tail and what looks like white prop blades!



The paint is pretty unusual but just the same as the rudder of Hurricane ”white 92”.



I donīt think the blades are white,probably they are in natural metal.

pic #107, note mismatched wing!  and doped flare chute behind cockpit.  I though strikes me on these planes, perhaps they had extensive fabric damage delivery, rather than battle damage, would explain extensive recovering?
(Sorry,no photo)Itīs an impressive picture,the colours of the wing are really mismatched.And besides the repaired patch behind the cockpit you mentioned ,it looks like that zone is painted in white as part of a winter finish.

Another picture of a wing with mismatched colours:



This Huricane has the external sections of the wing replaced by flying surfaces modified with soviet weapons.Fuselage in D.Green/D.Earth/Sky and external wings in D.Green/O.Grey/M.Sea Grey?
Greetings.

Martin
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mholly
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Posts: 117


« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2010, 07:26:50 PM »

Hi Martin,
Thanks for very interesting pictures. Regarding the last one-how would you know there was anything painted in Dk.Earth/Dk.Green/Sky? As far as I know this camo called TLS (temperate land scheme) was changed before L-L deliveries started to DFS (day fighter scheme) consisting of Dk.Green/Ocean Gray/Medium Sea Grey.
I also like to warn (again) againt "Pilawskii's syndrome" i.e. judging colors, and even paint types(!), from B&W pictures. EP did "analysis" of "white 14" on his site once (cann't find it anymore) with pretty "wild" results (AII Brown, AII Green etc.). To me this machine is a typical example of PARM re-painting after somewhat extensive repair and will never find out the actual colors.
Cheers,
Mario
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2010, 05:38:12 AM »

I believe (I know I should check...) that the Day Fighter Scheme was introduced in August 1941, which would indeed have been before the delivery of Hurricanes to the Soviet Union.  However, this introduction was at the behest of Fighter Command, and was initially restricted to the UK.  For overseas use two colour schemes remained in use, the Desert Scheme and the Temperate Land Scheme.  RAF Hurricanes in DFS overseas do not appear until late in the war.

I believe this wider appearance of DFS is linked to the production delays caused by the wide range of possible colours.  I have read that Supermarine complained about this, and later Spitfires were only produced in two schemes (one being DFS, I don't recall the other). The same is also true about Mosquitoes (PRU Blue or Night Fighter scheme).  I have not seen any comment linking this to Hurricane production, but it makes sense.  By this time the majority of RAF Hurricanes will have been intended for the Far East, where TLS was still standard, so a mix of this and DFS would seem sensible - remember that the Hurricane was still in front line use in the UK until early 1944.

Even if relevant, this standardisation appears to have been rather late for most Hurricane deliveries to the Soviet Union.  To my eye many of the pictures lack the high contrast, sky spinners, sky tail band and yellow leading edge that go with the Day Fighter scheme, or signs of overpainting to remove the same.  I don't believe that it is safe to rule out deliveries in TLS on the grounds of Fighter Command's rulings in 1941.


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marluc
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2010, 03:43:24 PM »

Hi Mario:

Regarding the last one-how would you know there was anything painted in Dk.Earth/Dk.Green/Sky?
Itīs just pure speculation,the underside colour of the Hurricane looks lighter than the underside colour of the external section of the right wing,this makes me think it was Sky.

EP did "analysis" of "white 14" on his site once (cann't find it anymore) with pretty "wild" results
I remember it,"white 14" had an extensive repainting but it canīt be said that it was a Dk.Earth/Dk.green Hurricane.By the way,whatīs a "PARM re-painting"?

Graham,thanks for the information.

Greetings.

Martin
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learstang
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2010, 05:13:56 PM »

Martin, I can answer about the "PARM".  A PARM was a field aircraft repair shop (or field maintenance unit), Polevaya Aviaremontnaya Masterskaya in Russian.  They often did very extensive repairs of aircraft, in the case of Il-2's direct from the factories, practically rebuilding some of them due to the often poor quality they were built with.

Regards,

Jason
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marluc
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Posts: 419



« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2010, 07:35:31 PM »

Thanks Jason for your answer.Greetings.

Martin
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mholly
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Posts: 117


« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2010, 10:31:04 AM »

I believe (I know I should check...) that the Day Fighter Scheme was introduced in August 1941, which would indeed have been before the delivery of Hurricanes to the Soviet Union.  However, this introduction was at the behest of Fighter Command, and was initially restricted to the UK.  For overseas use two colour schemes remained in use, the Desert Scheme and the Temperate Land Scheme.  RAF Hurricanes in DFS overseas do not appear until late in the war.

I believe this wider appearance of DFS is linked to the production delays caused by the wide range of possible colours.  I have read that Supermarine complained about this, and later Spitfires were only produced in two schemes (one being DFS, I don't recall the other). The same is also true about Mosquitoes (PRU Blue or Night Fighter scheme).  I have not seen any comment linking this to Hurricane production, but it makes sense.  By this time the majority of RAF Hurricanes will have been intended for the Far East, where TLS was still standard, so a mix of this and DFS would seem sensible - remember that the Hurricane was still in front line use in the UK until early 1944.

Even if relevant, this standardisation appears to have been rather late for most Hurricane deliveries to the Soviet Union.  To my eye many of the pictures lack the high contrast, sky spinners, sky tail band and yellow leading edge that go with the Day Fighter scheme, or signs of overpainting to remove the same.  I don't believe that it is safe to rule out deliveries in TLS on the grounds of Fighter Command's rulings in 1941.




Excellent information, thanks a lot.
Cheers,
Mario
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mholly
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Posts: 117


« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2010, 10:35:04 AM »

Martin,
Just to slightly "improve" Jason's translation to
Field Aircraft Repair Workshop.
Cheers,
Mario
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learstang
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2010, 11:09:21 AM »

Martin,
Just to slightly "improve" Jason's translation to
Field Aircraft Repair Workshop.
Cheers,
Mario

Thank you, Mario!  I forget where I got the translation from, but I'll change it in my book.

Regards,

Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

- Warren William Zevon

http://www.learstang.com
marluc
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Posts: 419



« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2010, 01:46:53 PM »

Martin,
Just to slightly "improve" Jason's translation to
Field Aircraft Repair Workshop.
Cheers,
Mario
Thanks Mario,greetings.

Martin
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Troy Smith
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Posts: 349


« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2010, 02:29:15 PM »

Hello martin

thanks for starting this thread.  I will add more, but a quick one to start with.





Possibly pic #91, note unusual tail and what looks like white prop blades!



The paint is pretty unusual but just the same as the rudder of Hurricane ”white 92”.



I donīt think the blades are white,probably they are in natural metal.

First last, good idea...except that the blades on Rotol propellers are made of a compressed wood composite called 'Jablo'   This is why the crashed Hurricanes have splintered not bent blades.
as in this (borrowed from your Photos)   


second, no, the tail is not the same as '92'  the 'white' edge goes all the way round the rudder and fin. Not a light effect, as the tail is in shadow, note sun angle.
The blades maybe painted white or aluminum, or it may be a light effect, but if so, note there is no sign of the yellow tips? 
I don't know, but it's not something i have seen in other photos. 


more soon
T


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marluc
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Posts: 419



« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2010, 02:48:45 PM »

Hello Troy:

...except that the blades on Rotol propellers are made of a compressed wood composite called 'Jablo'   

The blades maybe painted white or aluminum, or it may be a light effect...
Yes,youīre right,I forget that the blades were made of wood.So,Iīm starting to think that itīs a light effect,the blades could be reflecting sunlight.
Greetings.

Martin
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Troy Smith
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Posts: 349


« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2010, 07:05:06 PM »

Hello Troy:

...except that the blades on Rotol propellers are made of a compressed wood composite called 'Jablo'   

The blades maybe painted white or aluminum, or it may be a light effect...
Yes,youīre right,I forget that the blades were made of wood.So,Iīm starting to think that itīs a light effect,the blades could be reflecting sunlight.
Greetings.

Martin

Hmm, well, black blades don don't reflect much, and why is there not trace of the yellow tips?   I don't know, but even the part of the blade in shadow looks pale.  Looking at planes with the propeller going round even in sunlight they tend to look dark, and the yellow tips show up.   

The tail marking is interesting! 

cheers
T
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marluc
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Posts: 419



« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2010, 07:38:41 PM »

The tail marking is interesting! 
Yes ,itīs very interesting,Iīve never seen a picture of a soviet aircraft with a similar marking.Another point of interest is the dark rectangle of paint that covers the undersurface RAF roundel.
Greetings.

Martin
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Troy Smith
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Posts: 349


« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2010, 07:41:12 PM »

The link to this got posted somewhere on here, http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22552&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=20#

which has some fascinating (jaw dropping for me) pics of VVS Hurricanes.  If you read the thread it seems that there are 1/72nd decals of these being done.  I did PM Mikhail of Scalemodels .ru and i think 1/48th are coming.
here's the photos.  Is the text interesting?  can anyone translate?

There are colour profiles in the thread above.  That there are now 3 VVS Hurricanes with animal designs painted on the tail is fascinating.  
  
the top 3 planes are all from 767 IAP if i read the captions correctly.  

I have linked as these under "fair use" as this is a specific discussion on VVS Hurricanes markings.

Z3227, 'Lizard tail' is shown on the profiles as being DG/DE/Sky, but give the contrast between spinner and underside, think DG/OG/MSG more likely.  
Note littel red star on spinner tip.

Also, at least some Spitfires, (and presumably) Hurricanes were supplied with British applied red stars with black outlines, there are pictures in Red Stars 4 of the RAF roundels being sprayed out and the red stars applied.  







enjoy
T
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 08:01:54 PM by Troy Smith » Logged
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